so it's kind of the classic foreign policy dilemma that you have very modest tactical benefits and a huge strategic risk. that has now blown up in our faces. >> bill? >> i would say if you're going to eavesdrop on phone calls of the german chancellor, that has to be something that the president of the united states authorizes and thinks frankly is worth the risk of exposure, as nick says. you can't just have the bureaucracy doing that. i would like to know, did this president or the previous president, for that matter, sanction that and if so, maybe they thought it was worth it. i don't have a principled problem with listening to other people's calls, even some allies, if we think it's important. you shouldn't do it in a haphazard way which generally damages relations with the real ally. >> do you think it's true that the president of the united states would not know that the nsa is listening in to angela merkel's phone conversations? >> you know, i'm a little mystified by that. i talked today to a former senior cia official and asked about that, and this person said that in the past